What I really wanted you to think about, and comment on below, is something that Golf and others mentioned in our discussion yesterday, especially when we were working on a definition of the word sentence. The idea of grammatical correctness came up several times in that discussion, and in a couple of others. Grammar obviously matters - and especially so in academic work. But what is grammatical correctness? What makes a sentence or something else grammatically correct? What is incorrect grammar? How does grammar become correct or incorrect? How do we know what is correct and incorrect grammar? How do you decide these sort of questions?
The following is a quotation from page 97 of Fight Club, a novel that one of my classes read last term (long quotations - 40 words or more - are indented rather than being put in quotation marks):
What would I do?This short passage from Chuck Palahniuk's novel, which has since been made into a fun movie starring Brad Pitt, did cause some difficulty for most students. What do you think? is it difficult?
The hole in my cheek, the blue-black swelling around my eyes, and the swollen red scar of Tyler’s kiss on the back of my hand, a copy of a copy of a copy.
Speculation.
Why does Tyler want ten copies of the fight club rules?
Hindu cow. (Palahniuk, 2003).
- How many sentences are here?
- How many verbs are in the longest sentence?
- And, the important question, is Palahniuk's grammar correct?
Would you mark it wrong if you were proofreading this text? Why or why not? - What are other important issues in this example?
Since grammar is something we should worry about in our academic writing (and in non-academic writing?), please feel welcome to share your ideas below on any of the questions raised here or in our discussion in class yesterday.
And much as I enjoy Fight Club, and would be happy to read this modern classic again, it's not on my list of potential novels for this term; AUA does, however, have copies if you would like to borrow one - let me know.
__________
References
Palahniuk, C. (2003). Fight Club. London: Vintage.
There are four sentences.
ReplyDeleteI think this is the longest sentence "The hole in my cheek, the blue-black... a copy of a copy" There has no verb in this sentence.
I think swelling (line2) shall be swellings because 2 eyes should have 2 swellings
That's all for me now. Any suggestions?
Dig (August 3, 2011 1:08 AM),
ReplyDeleteSo, you think that Palahniuk's grammar is wrong. Right?
And that his respected publisher did not correct it before sending it out into the world?
After I had posted, I also thought that it might have been useful to ask about dictionaries and what they do (perhaps more importantly, what they do not do), but perhaps that will come up in the discussion.
This morning.
I think the 3rd one, "Speculation." is not a sentence even it has a full-stop at the end, because it does not have a complete idea (I don't understand what it is saying about.).
ReplyDeleteIn my opinion, Palahniuk's grammar is not correct. But it's ok. So the movie director didn't want to correct this speech, because it perfectly express right emotional scene.
ReplyDeletecorrect grammar means the sentence is using the right words and right tense and in right structure. Incorrect grammar may don't have the right structure, using the wrong tense or words. For the sentences Peter choose from Fight Club, I think the grammar is wrong. some sentences are incomplete.
ReplyDeleteI think a grammar of the second sentence is wrong , I think I cannot find the verb of this sentence. And the third sentence, the word' Fight club rules" should have 's with " club".
ReplyDeleteWhat makes something grammatically correct? Perhaps we should ask: what does not, and cannot, make something correct grammar?
ReplyDeleteRules in a book cannot and do not make anything correct.
So, why do people write books on grammar? Why does Quest have a section called "Mechanics of Writing"?
In my opinion, correct grammar is a right structure of writing. Sometimes, it can be a phrase or clause, it does not always be a completed sentence. Pertaining to the quotation of Five Club above, "The hole in my cheek,.....a copy of a copy" seems to be wrong grammar but I think in this case it is fine; likes a short phrase or some kind like that.
ReplyDeleteWhat is correct grammar?
ReplyDeleteI think to do a correct grammar is about following rules. For example, tenses and using "s" in countable nouns. Using correct grammar does not mean composing a complete sentence.
As mentioned above, what is correct grammar?
ReplyDeleteI think correct grammar is a writing in the way of grammar rules. It might be a problem of someone who doesn't know what is right or wrong!!!
There are four sentences and four verbs.
ReplyDeleteFrom my point of view, I think Palahniuk's grammar is wrong:
the blue-black swelling around my eyes, and the swollen red scar of Tyler’s kiss on the back of my hand, a copy of a copy of a copy.
The tense is different.
Grammatical correctness in important as it is the important part that enable the users to communicate with others. As a result, what the language users should focus on is the purpose of using grammar: to communicate. As far as the we can send the message and the recipients understand it. The communication is successful. Grammar in such a situation should acceptable. The example above about novel makes me realize that we have various styles of language. So, we can have level of grammar we use to like in literary work, in written work, or in spoken language. Grammar should a tool. It should be standardized to accomplish the goal of communication. Other styles, even it is not very correct, it's the richness of language.
ReplyDeleteIn my opinion, there are four sentences and in the longest sentence doesn't have verb. I think it don't have mistake about grammar but i'm not sure. The important thing that is the word can be a sentence.
ReplyDeleteIn my opinion, correct grammar is very important in academic writing because it will help us communicate our idea clearer and shorter. Of course, incorrect grammar sentences can deliver message but it needs other factors to make it clear. In speaking, for example, we can use our body language to help us explain what we want to communicate and context also help listener understand whereas in writing we cannot get the advantage from context and body language.
ReplyDeleteHow we decide what is the correct grammar? I think we should get back to something simple. I think it should be what academically acceptable, help our message short and clear.
Thanks everyone for the thoughtful and constructive comments. I especially like Naya's and Rian's comments (and those apostrophes are very important.)
ReplyDeleteOne of the grammar points in chapter 1 of Quest 3 sets out a standard grammar rule that almost everyone "breaks" - including in academic writing in the most respected journals. And I don't always mark it as wrong when I proofread your work. It's the section on coordinating conjunctions on pages 33 - 34, which is not new to you, but worth doing as revision, and because it's a useful opportunity to notice how important are the points that Naya and Rian make in their comments above.
And of course that leads to the question of what is the best way to learn grammar - not just English grammar, but the grammar of any language.
Linguists like Steven Pinker (see the comments on Lek's post on his academic interests) also have a lot to say on these sorts of questions, which also bear on efforts to get computers understanding natural human language - something they have been notoriously not good at in the past.